Friday, February 27, 2009

I watched it and I think I'm ready to comment.

First off, what I wanted to talk about regarding Octomom was her decision to transfer 8 embryos. (I know there is talk about thhis doctor's new technique of "implanting" embryos directly into the lining, but it was unknown if it was done in Octomom's case.) Dr Phil mentioned that she had 40-50 embryos all together (um, holy shit?) so I went and tried to find info.

Apparently, she had 6 embryos transferred in 5 ETs (30 embryos). One set of twins, 4 singletons and the last 6 resulting in all 8.

She put 6 in thinking she'd get at the most 2. (and yes, yes, having more when she couldn't afford what she has is crazy, but I'm talking just IVF protocol here.) But everyone who has already commented are right - she's shown success in each and every transfer, there is no reason why 6 should have been used each time. That doctor should have his license revoked.

I had 4 transferred. 1 - 8 cell Grade A, 1 - 7 cell Grade A, 1 - 6 cell Grade B, and 1 - 5 cell Grade B. My lining was at the very minimum to even carry a pregnancy, well under their minimum required for ET. Due to my age and lining, my doctor surprisingly pushed for 4 embryos when I wanted two. I was stunned when I walked out with 4 in me. Thankfully the statistics worked in my favor and I ended up with just a singleton.

I am very unlike Octomom. I had only failures under my belt. Oh yeah - and I have a career, two children I afford, a husband with a career, a house of our own, do I need to go on?

I just can't go into all what I see wrong in her situation. What I can say is she waited and waited for a way to take care of these children - knowing her 15 minutes would eventually happen. Thats why she didn't lift a finger to get care for all the babies until right now. And the only thing she's doing? She's accepting help. That's all she talked about in the interview (besides explaining how she continuously "rationalized" all her decisions) was how she wanted to accept help and how she wanted to find new avenues for help.

What pisses me off is these children deserve help but she will benefit too. She should have to work off all the help she receives or something. And you know what? Millions of other families need help with their children too - but since she made the worst decisions of them all, she is the one who is getting help from the nation. It's all so unfair.

The larger pictures in this story. Should single people be "allowed" to have kids? Hell yes. Should people with a bunch of kids be "allowed" to have more? Sure. I think ONE thing should be the governing rule when bringing children into this world - that they can be cared for. Parents don't need to be rich, but a child should have a roof over their heads, food in the kitchen, heat/air/water and their own bed to sleep in. If that can't be satisfied, no, a child shouldn't be allowed to be brought into this world.

Of course it happens all the time because most people just have to have unprotected sex, but some people ~try~ for more and more children, without the basics. It just sucks. And that's all I have to say about that.

23 comments:

eden said...

Nancy .. I am SUCH a rude arsehole ... I have a big email to you still sitting in my draft email folder. Sorry mate! I got your birth announcement card yesterday, SO GORGEOUS. Stunning. I had never heard of a "birth announcement" card, we don't do them down here!

I love your new header .... the long and skinny pic does indeed match your long and skinny legs.

Octomum is on the news down here too, that duck mouth just hypnotises me. I think what she has done also raises the whole ethical dilemma of what to do with "extra" embryos. I have eight embies on ice ... hey, I could be an octomum too.

I will finish that email, I promise.

Love,
Arsehole xoxoxox

eden said...

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!

I got first comment!!

(And now second)

xoxox

Seriously? - Erin said...

Hey Nancy, I agree with much of what you said. I too think that yes you should have a large family if that is what you want and you can support. Yes, single people (men and women) should have children if they want.

My biggest problem with octo mom is the high order multiple thing. 6? really? with someone who always had success? I also recently heard that social services may not let them go home with her until she has a better living arrangement (the house is being foreclosed).

I was looking at your 40 week belly picture with admiration, that less than two weeks out of the gate...

Bean said...

I generally just lurk here, but I had to say that I couldn't agree more with what you wrote!

jenn said...

i agree that 6 was too many for her since she had success with pretty much every other time she tried. my main problem is her attitude after the fact. Like you said- the ~rationalizations~ of why she decided to have such a large family when she clearly can't afford the ones she has now. The fact that she doesn't think that receiving food stamps & assistance for her 2 disabled children means she is on welfare or being supported by the rest of us. And the little smirk on her face when she gets 'caught' by papparazzi getting her starbucks or her nails done. While I think every new mom can (& should) have some mommy time to themselves, does shopping at m.a.c. and getting a mani/pedi really seem the right thing to do when you have no income & your house is being forclosed & your babies are in the nicu? It just rubs me the wrong way.

Amanda said...

As most often happens, I agree with you wholeheartedly! On all points.

Anonymous said...

It hurts my heart that ~she~ has all these babies and really has shown no "concern/worry" about her sitch. I wanted a second child- didn't work out my way- I could support/care/etc etc for that child= she can't. And who gets the pregnancy and baby(ies) she does. It's just not fair.

I would not be so bitter if she would just show some common sense...some worry...some concern for having no house, no income, no help....its heart breaking.

I agree w/ you on the embryo transfer too= if you are able to get preggers w/ IVF w/ no prob...then why SIX??? I think she knew what she was doing. She had kids she couldn't care for at home-wanted more and wanted attention/ help from others. She knew what she was doing- and she is getting what she wanted. We- America- will help her b/c that is the right thing to do for those children....she should be ashamed.

Jen said...

I simply don't get it. When every transfer previously had resulted in a baby why would you transfer 6? I think the RE and this lady are nut jobs.

You are nothing like this lady Nancy. And while you transferred 4, it was with a lot of thought on you and your RE's part.

Got Karl's announcement by the way. So adorable!

Steph said...

I want to know how many failed IVFs she had. How many ~other~ embryos were there, besides the ones who resulted in successful pregnancies?

And she is claiming also that all this was done in one whack? (pardon the pun) How in the HELL does one person have 30, 40, 50 eggs fertilized and frozen at one time, like she is claiming?

Uhhh...


She is a manipulative, irresponsible liar. Dr. Phil even pointed out that she likes to deflect from his questions by giving answers that are just out there and off the wall and make no sense. She's a double-talker with no sense of reality.

Bringing home 8 micro-preemies? Even WITHOUT factoring in the other 6 at home, I'd be terrified.

I have 4 precious, precious children. And I'd LOVE to be pregnant again. LOVE it. I love having a baby in my arms.

But come on. Let's get real here, Octomom! Sometimes you gotta stop whether you want to or not.

She needs her ass kicked for putting her children--ALL of them--in the situation they are in now.





~~~~~~I want to ask a question~~~~~~



Do you remember the girl on WebMD who had all those embryos transferred and then it turned out that they ALL implanted and she was wanting to use selective reduction? Whatever happened to her? How many were there?


Remember how everyone (including me) was thinking, if she wasn't prepared for the possibility of having that many children, then WHY did she allow them all to be implanted?


The similarities are uncanny. I remember you blogging about her and I went to WebMD and read it. I can't remember who she was.



Steph
stephs_3_kidz

Steph said...

How in the world does someone get almost $24,000 behind on their house payment? I guess that's another point of contention with me.

Steph
stephs_3_kidz

Miss Tori said...

Steph,

That was an IUI, not IVF, who BD'd against doctor's orders. She did end up k/u with 9, reduced to 2.

Nancy,

I thought at one point during previous interviews she said that she had always had 6 embryos transferred for each of her ETs. If that was indeed the case, I'm thinking she probably thought just like the previous 6 ETs, she'd end up only with a singleton, or at most, twins. Her RE was wrong in transferring that many.

Hollie said...

First of all, Nancy, you are nothing like octomom. You knew the risks and made the best decision for you along with your husband and your dr. It doesn't seem fair to me either that she will get so much help for making bad decisions. I don't understand how you could rationalize spending money on IVF if you are on food stamps and can't take care of your children. I'm not saying IVF is for rich people, and I could even see a family on welfare doing IVF to have a first or second child, but more than that??

Answer to Steph's question:
The lady on webmd took ovary stimulation drugs, had too many follicles (eggs) and then had unprotected intercourse against the advice of her dr. She had 9 embryos implant. She reduced down to two and had healthy twins, boy and girl. She made a very hard decision to reduce, and I know it must have been torture. She made a bad decision to have intercourse, then made what probably was a good decision to reduce, even though it was difficult. If she hadn't reduced and delivered multiples (4 or 5 or 6 or 7...) we would be reading about her and seeing her story on tv.

Steph O. said...

Nancy, you have the good sense to know when to say "when"! Thus, your surgery on Wed...

Leaving out the "single mom" issue & the question of "should the number of children per family be regulated"- The thing that bugs me the most is that she was taking tax dollars while spending "her own" money on IVF. I KNOW they're not cheap! I think that at the very least, that's tax fraud!

nancy said...

Tori - you are completely right, that's what she said/did. I think that's what I tried to say here too. Oh - I had a typo - most was "2". Oops. I'll go fix that.

..soo.see.. said...

well said my friend!

Sarah said...

This story just keeps getting crazier! Every interview she shares something new that makes it even more messed up.

nancy said...

Steph - Tori and Hollie answered you above. But I'm going to be an ass and correct you on something...

Even though the girl you are talking about did IUI (well, tried to until her doctor cancelled her cycle and told her ~not~ to trigger and to abstain, yet she still did so. So she got 9 babies. That girl is not the mother of twins. That girl is one step up from octomom - she is nonamom - 9 kids - fitting, "non", eh? Since she reduced 7 of them? She is officially the mother of 9 babies, 2 survived and 7 died. But maybe the terminology matters. I know in the world of pregnancy loss, if a woman lost a baby, she would still say she was the mother of said baby. But if the mother killed, I'm sorry, "reduced" the baby, maybe that removed mother status of the dead ones. I'm not sure.)

What I wanted to correct you on was the term "implant" for IVF. When we have embryos and put them back in, it's a transfer, not an implantation. This doctor who is octomom's doctor is being said he invented a process of "implanting", but all other docs transfer. (I only correct because it's a big issue in the IVF world. It really drives us nuts!)

nancy said...

Ugh, I don't want this to be a discussion about selective reduction. Steph brought up the question that I obviously have deep feelings for. So let me reiterate some of my opinions on the matter and then the subject will be closed on my end ...

My problem is not with selective reduction. My problem is with women who put themselves in the path of selective reduction because they are greedy and impatient and don't want to "waste" a cycle and go against doctor's advice.

What happened to said webmd-er beaks my heart. She tried for a long time, but she is young! She got everything she wanted and if she would have skipped that cycle, she wouldn't have those twins she has right now. How could she imagine life without them? But there were seven other babies, just like her twins, that were created just to give up their lives for their brother and sister. Ugh, that decision must break her heart everyday. And I'm sorry she must live with it.

Do I think she should of tried to have all the babies? Hell no! Octomom is very lucky to have carried all 8. That is very risky and very rare. If webmd girl would have tried to carry, she most likely would have lost them all. Or her own life and no one would of wanted that.

I would have rather her listened to her doctor and tried again. Obviously with her young ovaries, she made tons of follicles on injections. So the next cycle could have gone back to oral meds, continued with injectibles and gone to IVF or even backed off the dosages so she got less eggs. No, she wouldn't of had the twins she has today, but she'd of ended up with another baby (or two - based on how well her uterus is to accepting embryos). But the best part is she wouldn't of had to go through the absolute heartbreaking decision of having to rid herself of her 7 of her twins' siblings.

Now, I had 4 embryos transferred. I was well aware twins could happen, but the stats of all four were super low. But the fact remained. Selective reduction may have been used in my case if all 4 implanted. Or maybe I would have tried to carry them all. I don't know, the decision hadn't been made. The difference here is one very important fact. My doctor not only suggested the transfer of four, he pushed me for it. And my doc is not a HOM doc pusher - he is very conservative!

Steph said...

Thanks for the clarification, girls! I couldn't remember the girl's name from WebMD and try as I might, I couldn't find the time to read far back enough to remember exactly what went on, I just remembered reading about it.

(Sorry about the implant/transfer confusion on my part..I didn't know about the sensitivity of confusing the 2 words, I apologize if I stepped on some toes with that one--although I sympathize a HUGE deal with IFers I don't know all the terms and how they are all used, so I hope you'll excuse/forgive me if I accidentally use the wrong term, I totally don't/didn't mean to offend)

Nancy, you touched on my ~issue~ with selective reduction. I just really, deep down think that if you are going to have that many transferred, it should be a conscientious decision not a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants-and-whatEVER decision.

I don't buy into Nadya Suleman's "I wanted my kids to have siblings" crap.

I wanted MY kids to have siblings and I had 4 kids. I'm done. Four kids is a LOT. But 14? Holy mackerel. I CANNOT imagine. I would not want to imagine. How many kids do you know that would think having 13 siblings is great??

My grandmother had 14 kids. All singletons. And they all hate each other, LOL.

I agree with whomever said in a previous response that yes, the kids need to be taken care of and provided for no matter what the circumstances but it burns my biscuit that Nadya is going to benefit from it, too. KWIM?

Manicures and Starbucks are things I consider a luxury. Considering I never have the time to even GET a manicure and I only have 4..not even the 6 she has at home now?

Man.

Steph
stephs_3_kidz

Krista said...

So with the other publicized HOM - like the Gosselins, or that family who has two sets of twins and then sextuplets, or the McCaughey's septuplets where IUI was used - has anyone read or have knowledge of whether they were given U/S scans to show how many mature follies might be there before proceeding with the IUI?

I've been wondering about that. Is there a chance that the u/s would not have caught so many mature follies, or is it likely that they knew there were a lot and went ahead anyways?

What do you girls think?

Miss Tori said...

Krista,

I know of cases where a woman was doing IUI, and only two or three follies showed up on the u/s. They proceeded and wham! The trigger released other eggs not seen, and they had more.

I can't fault someone if their religous beliefs prevent them from choosing SR. And I think that is what happened with Jon & Kate.

It sucks for any couple to be put in a situation like this. IF sucks!

Lisa said...

There are two things I have to say because it is killing me not to. I may not be popular in my thinking but here it is:

1. I absolutely hate when people bring religion and God into this. He has nothing to do with it. If it were God's will, she would not have had children. They were not conceived naturally... therefore not God's will. Using God and your religious beliefs to justify your selfish actions is just wrong. In cases like these or even for Jon and Kate, you cannot choose not to selectively reduce under the assumption that God wanted you to have this many children. The reality is that if science was not as advanced as it is, these people would not be having children at all. I must clarify that this does NOT mean that I am against women using fertility treatments to get pregnant. That is as long as theyare being smart about it. In my opinion, Octomom wa snot being smart.

2. You need a license to fish and hunt but not to be a parent. I hope that these kids are placed in a home that can truly provide for them. I do not feel that the home they were born into will provide them with what they need...

I hope I did not offend too many people. I am sure my opinions will not be well received but I felt the need to bring it up...

Aubrey said...

When I saw the story about her on Dateline she was asked why did you make the choice to put in so many embryos and she said something like it was the same amount I had put in each time and that is what the doctor reccomened. She each time she had IVF it was 6 embryos and then she got just the singletons or the twins. And she said that was the reason that the doc had made the choice to do 6 again just like all ther other times. I think I also remember her saying that there was like 1 or 2 times that she did IVF and it didnt work. I may have that wrong though but I thought I heard that somewhere.

I also agree that it shouldnt matter how rich or poor you are or any of that but I do think she wasnt really in the right mind to realize what she was in for it they all took. Sadly its these babies that are going to suffer the most in all of this and her other kids. I just pray that she is able to finish school and get her degree and make enough money to be able to support these kids.

As expensive as baby things have gotton I dont know how the hell she thought she could afford even one more kid on her "no income". In the "recession" period we are in now you would think that people would learn to be more responsible and not have 8 babies. Thank God Im only having 1 I couldnt afford more then 2 at this point :)