8/13/08 - I have edited this post in one way today - I removed the name of the author, removing her name and her signature. Back when I posted this, I did not know who she was, only watching her story unfold. I wasn't on the same message board she was either. Now that times have changed, I am removing her name, as pointing her out in public was not my intention. If you would read the post/comments, you will definitely see that. I did feel sorry for her situation, but pissed off about the decisions that got her there in the first place. I still feel exactly the same, so I'm not going to edit any words or comments. I was, however, in a more emotional place, as I was just past my first failed IVF and about to be cancelled on my first FET. Kinda puts a girl in a tough place. But that's not why I had these feelings, because I still feel the same. The spot I was in probably made me use a few emotionally charged words, words I wouldn't be making today. I'm also taking off the ability to make comments, as this was in the past and doesn't need to be discussed further.
~~~
(cut/pasted from a pregnancy message board.):
I'm blue (trigs)Posted: Apr 2008
If you are a happy pg lady please don't read this... I don't want to upset you. I am very blue today. I have no idea what is wrong with me but I wanted to write in hopes I can figure this out. I tried for 2 1/2 years to get pg. That is all I ever wanted was to become a mom. I spent so many countless hours crying, praying, and being mad that I couldn't get pregnant. Well it finally happened... I saw that positive and I was overjoyed. Then the sickness came... I suffered with BAD ohss and was hospitalized. I didn't know I was having multiples at that time. Six days later I was released but still very sick. Soon the morning sickness kicked in and it was very bad. It's so bad I can't remember what my life was like before this all happened.. was I happy, did I do things to be productive? I just can't imagine my life without constantly vomiting. Once we found out that we were having multiples my life hit a brick... sure I told you guys we were having twins but that is a lie... I have 8 right now and we are having a reduction next month to twins. I didn't want to tell the truth at first because 1. I am very Catholic and I am so against this and I just know others are too and I didn't want to cause controversy on the boards.. 2. I am in denial... and lastly I don't know if I will even carry the two that we are left with.. there is a very real possibility that we will loose the whole pregnancy. So I guess I would just hold it in and try to overcome all of this on my own. Only my parents and very close friend know.. everyone else just thinks it's twins! Oh what a blessing everyone says... only if they only knew... So right now I hate myself.. I hate being pregnant and I regret everything that I went through to get this way. I am so mad at myself for taking that trigger shot (against my RE's wishes) and causing the OHSS and hurting my babies. I wish this had never happened... My mom keeps telling me I am doing the right thing and I just need to be strong. DH keeps saying only two more weeks and you will feel so much better. No I won't.. yeah maybe the vomiting will stop because there aren't so many but my heart will hurt. I don't know how I can live with myself... or how can he? I have distanced myself so far from him that he finally broke down last night and told me how frustrated he is with me. Why can't I just accept it and move on? I don't know I say... I just don't know. So I am leaving this with my heart breaking and just hoping that I can find some peace. Thank you for listening.
... this is exactly WHY someone should listen to a doctor's advice. When overstimulation happens, they tell you to abstain for a reason. Now 6 babies will lose their lives.
Why oh why do people think selective reduction is just something that they can DO if they get too many by not heading a Dr's advice? Leave such a procedure for when a women ACTUALLY NEEDS it? (Like anything else besides a selfish woman's error?) I am not against selective reduction when it's necessary when the unfortunate happens to someone who's not expecting it. But I am not for it when it's used as a method of birth control because a woman can't wait another month to try again.
I'm sorry, but I'm pissed. I'm sure there are some who will feel for her, but I don't. She had too many mature eggs on an IUI and she was told NOT to trigger. But what does she do? Trigger and has sex. And now she's murdering the babies she made when she was fucking TOLD it was too dangerous.
... Once (and still) Infertile, but still Schnarky as hell. This blog is dedicated to the daily ramblings from the mind of Nancy. It isn't about anything profound in the grand scheme of things, but it ~is~ about things in my life, schnarkiness always included. I have a second blog, listed in my profile, but the blogs will continue to remain separate.
"I'm aiming for heaven, but I'll probably wind up down in hell"
About Me
- nancy
- I am a 39 year old woman. I am the mother of two beautiful daughters and a handsome son. I am a career woman. As for my TTC world, it certainly doesn't seem like I am "infertile", but I fought for my pregnancies and my TTC/IF history is on the sidebar. I have two blogs, which are both listed in my profile. One focuses on my daily life - including IF, TTC, pregnancy, delivery and even some "children mentioned" posts. The second blog is ~soley~ posts directly about being the mother to my three children.
Belly Pics for #3 only.
Click stick figure to see the consecutive pictures from this pregnancy only.
My TTC History
- Jul 01 ~ married
- Jan 02 ~ First cycle off bcps and opk shows ovulation!
- Dec 02 ~ Went to pcp for RE referral
- Jan 03 ~ Testing commences. S/A perfect. HSG clear.
- Feb 03 ~ Lap #1. All clear.
- Apr 03 ~ Clomid cycle #1. BFN.
- May 03 ~ Clomid cycle #2. BFN.
- Jun 03 ~ Clomid cycle #3. BFN.
- Jul 03 ~ Supposed to be IUI#1, but we missed cd3 so natural cycle
- Aug 03 ~ BFP on C18.
- Apr 04 ~ Ella born.
- Oct 04 ~ decided to ttc #2 and went off minipill to see if I am ovulating. I am. Will start next month.
- Nov 04 ~ TTC#2 starts. BFP. Holy Crap. No freaking way. No way.
- Aug 05 ~ Allison born
- Oct 06 ~ IUD removed. TTC#3
- Jan 07 ~ Large cysts found.
- Feb 07 ~ Femara cyle #1
- Mar 07 ~ Started w/ RE. HSG #2 showed R tube blocked. S/A normal.
- Mar 07 ~ more cysts, up to 9cms.
- Apr 07 ~ more cysts, 3 @ 7-9cms.
- May 07 ~ IUI #1 cancelled due to more cysts
- Jun 07 ~ IUI #1 (take two) w/ Clomid. BFN.
- Jul 07 ~ HSS showed scar tissue in 70% of uterus. Diagnosed with Asherman's Syndrome. Uterine surgery #2
- Aug 07 ~ HSG #3 showed clear tubes.
- Aug 07 ~ IUI #2 w/ Femara. BFN.
- Sept 07 ~ Monitored w/ hCG trigger. BFN.
- Oct 07 ~ HSS #2 showed scar tissue in 30% of uterus. Uterine surgery #3.
- Dec 07 ~ HSS #3 showed tiny amount of scar tissue. Uterine surgery #4.
- Jan 08 ~ HSS #4 showed clear uterus.
- Jan 08 ~ IUI #3, C16. BFN.
- Mar 08 ~ IVF #1, Transfer Cancelled due to lining. Out of 15 eggs, 9 were mature and all 9 fertilized. I have named my 9 embryos "The Mod Squad" and they are in the freezer, waiting for mommy to be ready.
- Apr/May 08 ~ FET #1. C20. 4 embryos "The Fab Four" transferred on 5/05. BFP!!! Very Low Beta (15 at 11dp3dt) but the numers continued to double every 48 hours. Told it was "most likely not viable" and later "most likely ectopic" but we beat all the odds.
- May 16, 08 ~ 11dp3dt (4w0d), beta #1: 15
- May 19, 08 ~ 14dp3dt (4w3d), beta #2: 43
- May 23, 08 ~ 18dp3dt (5w0d), beta#3: 213
- May 27, 22dp3dt (5w4d), beta #4: 1,073
- Jun 08 - Ultrasound showed one heartbeat at 7 weeks.
- Jul 08 - Had CVS testing. Chromosomes are normal and it's a BOY!! EDD: 1/23
- Aug 08 - Jan 09 ~ High risk due to: 1) Velamentous Cord Insertion, deemed biggest risk 2) Previous Placenta Accreta 3) Previous rapid degraged placenta 4) IVF alone can create weak placenta 5) AMA - Advanced Maternal Age. -- All resulting in almost 30 u/s and lots of testing, which ended up saving my life.
- Jan 09 (38w0d) ~ Karl is born! -- Crazy 3 days in hospital. Manual version to flip baby from breech to head down, Labor, Delivery, Emergency surgery due to cord detaching from placenta, Scary heart issues from losing over 40% of my blood supply, and then a blood transfusion due to the extreme loss of blood. Whew!
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- I made a half decision.
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- Two more days.
- This makes me want to throw up.
- What is there to do? Oh yes. Wait.
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- Oh The Places You'll Go
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35 comments:
I know a couple who didn't listen and ended up with quintuplets. They are now divorced.
I happen to agree with you on the selective reduction thing. The woman doesn't say if there is a reason why she thinks she'll lose the final two babies. Maybe there is a reason for the reduction? For example, I have MS and physically cannot carry more than twins because it would be too much stress on my body. I'm actually mulling over IVF instead so I know only two embryos would be implanted (that and this stuff is very stressful which isn't good either).
WOW, how can you go through a pregnancy and smile in peoples faces knowing you killed 6 of your babies because of your own selfish greediness,thats just wow, and then to kill 6, she can carry more.I've never heard of carrying 8 but she can successfully carry more than 2,thats just her own selfishness coming out again, and then to say, I want a boy and a girl, she deserves N O T H I N G!
I agree with you Nancy. I know she was heart broken for a baby but triggering when she was told not to when she had such mature follies anyway. . . was a pretty selfish and dangerous thing to do.
This is absolutely disgusting! I almost cried reading this. How can you kill your children? How do you decide who lives and who dies and then still hope you get a boy and a girl? This woman is so completely selfish. I don't know how she will ever live with herself after this. If she went against her doctors advice and triggered and ended up with 8 babies then take responsibility and carry all of them. If you can't afford to raise all of them, give some up for adoption. The problem with the world is that it is too easy just "get rid" of babies. I hope this woman lives in regret the rest of her life. That will be what she deserves after murdering 6 of her children that she TRIED for. I'm so sorry you ever had to read her post.
Lauren (L_Chelle)
She obviously, wasn't mature enough to "get" that having sex and releasing 8 eggs may make 8 embies, but, how infertile is this women? NO ONE who is infertile has an iui with 8 eggs and ALL 8 fertilize and implant? I think this may be a fake Nancy, or some really needy immature person (i mean it says that she is 24 and has been ttc for 2.5 years - do people really start TTC at 21??
I
This pisses me off too. BUT, what pisses me off about it is that she CAN get pregnant, she CAN carry them to term and if she cannot handle or provide for all eight of them, give them up for adoption. I know that sounds wrong, but at least those innocent babies will have a chance at life; a chance that they deserve because it's not THEIR fault their mother overstimulated herself like she WASN'T supposed to do.
I love that people like her take getting pregnant for granted and choose selective reduction as if it were picking out a car. It just makes me wonder "why her?" even more.
Ugh.
I've only read what you posted about this woman, so I don't know the whole situation. But...I do feel bad for her. Yes she went against drs. orders and is paying the price. But how many women wouldn't be tempted to take the ultimate gamble at a pregnancy when you've never had that child you desperately want?
She had a choice to sit out a "successful" cycle or to go for it with the hope that maybe just this once she'd get pregnant. Well she went for it and the worst happened. It's a horrible situation to be faced with and I don't know what I would do in her situation. But after 2 1/2 years, yeah I can relate.
It can be challenging to keep an open mind when looking at someone elses story. You know what I mean?
trace, i'm not talking about the fact she's doing selective reduction. I'm pissed over the fact she went ahead and made a stupid decision that was what was killing her babies to begin with.
I am not arguing for her to carry all 8. I'm arguing over her sheer selfishness to trigger with SO MANY FOLLIES when her doctor said NO. She's fucking selfish. "I don't want to wait, I'll just try it now".
Duck, she's not a fake. I remember her going through her entire cycle and us telling her to LISTEN to her doctor. and how she had too many.
I'm disgusted with people like her in this world.
Sure it can be challenging to look at the other side. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
I wouldn't tempt fate like that. She did. And those who do shouldn't be allowed to be upset about what they have to do. It's their fault. Plain and Simple.
Although I 120% believe she shouldn't have done what she did against doctor's wishes....we talked about that right when she did it AND it was a huge DUH when she got OHSS. I can't even imagine being faced with that decision...or hearing that news in the first place. No one expects to have 5 eggs and end up with 8 babies, especially someone who has tried for 2.5 years and nothing has worked in the past. I mean the statistics of that are just unreal. If this situation was different and she had triplets and just didn't want three so decided to go to twins I would be completely and utterly outraged if there was no medical reason she HAD to reduce.
No, I wouldn't have chosen to do what she did, but I *can* understand the desperate desire and mentality behind why this ultimately terrible decision was made. Trust me, my jaw hit the floor when I read that....so I'm not disagreeing that she was in the wrong to begin with (which at least she does acknowledge) or that the whole situation is f'ed up, but part of me does feel sorry for the position she put herself in, and the thought of actually going through THAT process is just too much to even think about.
Oh, and Duck...I started trying when I was 20 ;-)
I just don't feel sorry for anyone who put themselves in the situation to begin with.
"oh poor guy on death row, it must be tough having to decide which way you should pick to die".
Um, no. The dude went on a rampage and killed 6 people. I don't feel sorry for him now that he's in a tough spot.
This chick folded to her desperation. And she has no one to blame but herself. Is where she is suck right now? Sure it does. Big time. But am I going to put my heart into trying to help her? FUCK NO. You dug your own hole. I'm not going to throw you a rope.
Of course you don't have to agree, it's your blog. But I don't see her as being on the "other side" she is where we are, dealing with IF the best she can. Many of us have to face difficult IF decisions everyday. I agree that she made a poor choice. But to follow your logic that she "shouldn't be allowed to be upset about what [she has] to do" means that anyone who gets pregnant, does treatment etc. has no room to complain about the outcome. Many fellow bloggers have had to make some difficult choices and normally have the support of those in this community. I'm a little sad to see her hung out to dry. Is she aware of what is going on here?
I again disagree. I ~do~ think everyone should be held accountable for their actions, regardless of how badly we wanted something. If I was super poor and I went in an robbed a bank because I hadn't had any money for 3 years, even though I've been TRYING to pull it together, I should still be held responsible when if caught, right? A judge shouldn't say "well, she's been ~trying~ for a long time to get a good job and she was tired of waiting, yet again, for another chance. So we should feel sorry for her and let her off."
No, she should do her time like anyone else.
Does she have the support? Yes - if you follow the link to her message, you'll see every other women is giving her TONS of support. I personally choose to vent it here because 1) I hardly know her and 2) I do feel she's in a tough place. And be bitching about her bad decisions isn't going to change her ~now~. She doesn't need my opinions, so I'm leaving her alone. But my heart needs to vent it out, that's why I'm venting about it here. She's not a part of the blogging community so it's pretty safe she won't find it. My blogging isn't for her. My blogging is for me and my opinions.
I just watched her go through this entire cycle. I watched an ENTIRE message board tell her they were sorry about getting cancelled. I watched many (myself included) tell her to NOT have sex and to reiterate how dangerous it was.
And I watched her tell us all she triggered. And watched her tell us all about her OHSS. And watched her give her BFP. And watched her lie about the number of babies. Why did she lie? Because she knew she was wrong.
Does she need support now? Sure she does. And I'm glad she has the support from her message board.
My whole point here is not to hang her to dry. My point is to blog about how irresponsible it is to do such a thing and she's just the knewest example. And it darkens my heart to see these examples.
I know my logic"
she 'shouldn't be allowed to be upset about what [she has] to do" means that anyone who gets pregnant, does treatment etc. has no room to complain about the outcome." has holes in it. But it also kind of holds water too. She knew it was dangerous and now the worst has happened. She shouldn't get to complain about the outcome in a "why me" such a way. She has a right to be upset she was "caught" in her crime, so to speak, but she did it herself. So no, she doesn't get to complain about it. Does she have to deal with it? Yes. Should she get support from people who care? Yes. Do I hope she has support? Yes. But I do ~not~, in anyway, feel sorry for the fact she did this to herself.
Please don't miss my rage for me not caring for her. My rage is directed soley at the fact her selfishness is causing the killing of 6 babies. Those 6 babies shouldn't been in existence but they were only conceived to be killed.
I've felt like this for a long time, by the way. I've seen many stories of women triggering with too many, putting too many embryos back, etc. Usually all committed by women who were at the end of their TTC rope, but for me, that doesn't make it right. Desperation shouldn't make such a thing "okay".
I agree with selective reduction, I do. But I don't agree with selective reduction used as a fertility tool. Never put more back (or trigger with) more than you are willing to carry. And if you do, then you should be held responsible for your consequences.
oh.my.god. i just felt my heart break for those babies. i don't even know what to say. i'm over the fact that woman made a horrible mistake by not listening to her doctor. i'm onto the reality of her situation and the fact that she is basically terminating 6 lives. and a little sidenote, if she were a devout catholic like she said she wouldn't do IVF in the first place. period.
Nancy, I understand your comments and I'm glad you put them here rather than responding directly to this woman who clearly is not in a position to really process criticism yet, although I have to admit that I support SR. I actually think it is reasonable for doctors to refuse to treat PCOs patients (who usually produce many, many follicles) who will not consider SR. I just wanted to respond because I completely and totally don't understand the idiots who think this women could just 'carry 8' and 'give them up for adoption.' She would die. All the babies would die. Your heart cannot handle supporting 8 fetuses. The media makes such a big deal of quads and quints because it is really, really rare for mother and babies to survive that process. I have several acquaintances who almost lost their lives to trying to carry multiples. Needless to say, none of the babies survived (or came even close to viability). Regardless of what you think of SR in general, it's clear in this case that it was the only option to allow any potential for a live birth from this pregnancy. And that is why as IF patients we need to support SR. Because this clearly immature, misguided woman and all of her fetuses would almost certainly die without intervention.
Nancy - WOW, it's amazing that this is a real person, I don't feel bad for her on many levels, and I can see and totally understand why you would be so annoyed/angry at her,but, really how infertile can you be if you take a few drugs have sex and then get pregnant with 8 babies? So I'm glad she is getting support, but, I would find it impossible to feel any kind of minor sympathy for her, she decided to be an idiot, she has live with the consequences of that decision. That's called being a grown up.
Wow. Personally I am not against selective reduction. But at the same time, I am against not following your RE's advice especially when it pertains to the possibility of high order multiples. It was a completely irresponsible action to take, and it sounds like she is now paying the price and so are those babies.
I just can't get past her signature, "murdering 6 and keeping 2." That's abhorrent.
I can only pray for her, her situation and her family.
Rachel, I hope you've seen my comments that I support SR too, just in not this way. To use it because she went ~against~ Drs orders... It's like using abortion as birth control. And I totally agree it's what needs to happen because I know these babies wouldn't survive at all. I'm just pissed off at her selfish decision to begin with. I agree with what has to be done now.
elephantscanremember - that's not her signature. The parenthesis is my addition. (i'm pissed that her signature is all "it's twins!" when it's not.)
I know nothing of the IF world or of the path you all walk, so maybe take this as an outside look. Imagine being in her shoes. All judgements aside, imagine how scared she must be? What an ass she must feel like? I did not go to webmd and read all the "oh woah is me" shit, but seriously. The chick is pregnant with 8 babies... her fault. WTF. Don't feed her to the wolves, Nanc. She knows what she did was some stupid shit...she's got 8 kids to show for it...six of which she's not keeping.
She will carry this in her heart for the rest of her life. For the rest of her life the one thing she tried her hardest to achieve she killed...not once, but six times. She will walk with that guilt and the question and knowledge of looking at the two babies she does keep..."I wonder if the other SIX would have their eyes. Their laugh. Their hair. I wonder if..."
There's no point in being angry and beating her up. There is nothing you can do to her heart that time is not going to do. Can you imagine?
Nancy, can you pleaes explain to us not IF people what exactly she did to produce so many embroyos?
Ooops! I was hoping she wasn't THAT heartless and crass to put it into those words herself.
Sorry about that.
Stephanie - I'm not throwing her to the wolves. If I wanted to, I would go over there and tell her to read all of this. Instead, I'm staying out of it and letting her get the support from everyone giving her support. This blog post wasn't about ~her~, it's about my heart breaking over all of it. This is all I'll speak about. And it's been a topic in my head for a long time, it just took this situation for me to speak about it. Don't worry, she's getting support. I'm not beating her up, but I am talking about it to get it off of my own chest before it ate me alive.
Trisha - She was doing an IUI with injectibles, which is an insemination after growing more than the usual amount of eggs. It's very risky to do this, as many women grow too many eggs. When you see crazy multiples, it's usually from this procedure (ala kate + 8 on TLC). This chick did an injectibles cycle (why? no idea - she just wanted to get someplace in a hurry) and when she grew too many eggs, it was dangerous and too risky for multiples so the doctor cancelled on her. Told her NOT to trigger ovulaiton and told her NOT to have sex. Instead, she triggered AND had sex as much as possible. Although she had 5 mature eggs, I remember she had even more "borderline" eggs. So she proceded with knowing this could very well be the outcome. And what do you know? It was the outcome. So she was selfish, not wanting to let this month go by, and she tried to get pregnant. And most of her eggs fertilized. And now, instead of waiting a month and trying again, she has to kill 6 of her babies.
Oh, and imagining myself in her shoes - I was once. And my cycle was cancelled because of it. It sucked, but I abstained. But knowing that if I did the outcome would be to kill my babies? That is why I didn't move forward. The kicker? She gets twins out of it.
and she's an ass, Nanc. An ass who KILLS six beautiful children for those twins. Not such a gem of a prize if you ask me. I'd rather have no children at all then live with the fact that I had to murder six of my children because I could not control myself, so believe me... I'm not against you, I'm just not sure I understand this entire world...IF that is.
And I understand. I just wanted to make it clear that I'm 99.99% sure she won't read this and if I was any less sure, I wouldn't of posted this. I'm not wanting to make matters for her any worse, as she's already in her own personal hell I'm sure. Plus, what would my yelling at her do anything about what's already happened.?
I'm just so pissed that anyone would do this to begin with = and this story was the last straw for me being silent on the subject.
grrrr.
And this is why I listened to my doc even though it meant a cancelled cycle and many tears. I'm for SR when it's needed, just like you eloquently put it but she knew what she was getting into. Yikes! Despiration is no excuse for not listening to her doc and I can see why you are disgusted by her choice, I'm disgusted as well, especially when you are listening to all your doc's orders and still waiting.
Cate
I'm with you, Nancy. She didn't listen to anyone and now she's screwed.
She knew she had 5 mature eggs when she triggered so she knew she had the possibility of having quints (at least). And apparantly she's not willing to carry more than 2. She should never have triggered.
Ok, trying to make sure I understand. What is "triggers"..is it a drug that causes you to create more eggs and ovluate? Were all of them hers that her body producted and then the doctor saw she had that many and said DONT have sex?
Could this happen w/ any normal woman or is the liklihood she just has one good egg a month.
So she basically did something to create lots of eggs, did something to ovulate, and then had sex against a doctors orders not too and fertilized that many eggs.
sorry for the stupid questions.
I am not sure where I'd sit with this selective reduction thing but I'm not living with IF and all those struggles you and other women are going through.
However, having lost a baby that I desperately wanted and seeing so many women get pregnant with unwanted babies, it makes me want to vomit to see this happening. Especially if, like you've explained, this could have been avoided.
Reading through the comments here I tried to keep an open mind especially with my lack of knowledge of IF. But it still comes back to the fact that she DID get pregnant with 8 babies after ignoring her doctors advice. If I was in her shoes, I would have a very difficult time being so openly candid on how I REALLY felt about it all.
Is she making this decision simply because she doesn't WANT to carry 8? Or have the docs said she CAN'T carry that many? It seems that with some serious medical care, she might be able to carry them and then give the other six up for adoption.
It's just a slap in the face to those of us who have lost children or those of you who struggle even getting pregnant.
Trisha, she took drugs to make more than one egg. Ended up making too many. Dr told her to not "trigger" ovulation (yes, a drug that makes you release the eggs) and to not have sex. She triggered against Dr's advice ~and~ had sex. And got pregnant with too many, which her doctor tried to protect her against. It's a risk those doing this protocol take and that's why Drs are so careful during injectible cycles (where multiple eggs are made)
Jenera - It's rare someone could carry that many babies. Very rare that the babies or even her would survive. The selective reduction in this case is necessary for survival of anyone. I'm just upset she got here in the first place.
Ok, well then in my opinion, it was extremly irresponsible (and highly selfish) of her.
trisha
When she made all those eggs (or anyone in this situation), and the doctor advises not to trigger or have sex, I think the doctor should have a right to take away the trigger drug from the patient so that she wouldn't have been able to take it. It makes me so sad to think of all those babies. How would one choose which 2 to keep? There are a lot of ethical things on the stand here...it's those innocent babies that will be suffering.
I read this post yesterday and can't stop thinking about it.
I can see both sides of the argument - yes she was desperate to be a mother but she was being highly irresponsible.
It just makes me so, so sad.
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